nationfandomcom-20200223-history
Talk:Burenian invasion of Lovia
I'm not actually sure how feasible it would be for the Burenian government to actually attack another country considering it is more or less at civil war (Semyon said that the province of Kob was opposed to the central government, etc.; also, I control the province of Mibinaru). :P 77topaz (talk) 05:22, May 24, 2014 (UTC) :That claim about a civil war in Burenia is not exactly true though :P --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 07:41, May 24, 2014 (UTC) That does make this even less likely. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 07:51, May 24, 2014 (UTC) :What makes it less likely? The presence or the absence of a civil war? :P --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 07:55, May 24, 2014 (UTC) ::The presence of one or the recent presence of one. Also You still need to sort out the issues on the page and further where is Burenia? Hoffmann KunarianTALK 12:01, May 24, 2014 (UTC) We should also talk about coordinating allied action against the Axis of Evil. Kemburg (Happy) doesn't care and is indifferent, Libertas (Wabba) expressed support throughout the previous year for armed action against the axis, Pintona and Strasland (MMunson) I believe also supported Lovia and Insel and Traspes appear to be neutral. HORTON11: • 16:14, May 24, 2014 (UTC) :@Kun: Well, as there is/has been no civil war in Burenia, that issue seems irrelevant :P :@Issues on page: I'll fix them :P :@Lokàtsia Bureniù: Near the Aleutian Islands :P :@Horton: Klýxef, and I'd like to add that Mäöres wants to stay neutral as well :P --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 19:25, May 24, 2014 (UTC) :Semyon's reactions the last time the Burenian government proposed an invasion seem to indicate the government of the province of Kob is quite dissident. :P 77topaz (talk) 04:34, May 25, 2014 (UTC) ::A takavíhki province is something else than a civil war though :P --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 06:24, May 25, 2014 (UTC) I shall assume you have two forces of 300 men each from your page references, no more. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 20:03, May 24, 2014 (UTC) Military size Perhaps all involed and interested nations should fill out this table so we can know comparative military strength. HORTON11: • 14:07, May 26, 2014 (UTC) Oceana Logic Gotta love Oceana Separatist logic: *Fiercely independent separatists have their capital invaded by Burenians who begin capturing government offices and suppressing the population. **Oceana separatists cower and hide. *Sylvanian forces, who are friendly to Oceana and sympathetic to autonomy and to a degree separatism come to help the Oceana. **Oceana separatists attack! by surprise! from the side! to aid the Burenians. Who want to impose their rule on Lovia... *Presumably the next step for the Oceana separatists to celebrate via masochism? Well the even just got interesting but it also just got a lot worse for the invaded parts of Lovia. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 18:47, May 27, 2014 (UTC) But still, massacring the whole population of Oceana people from a village is not right. There are a number of Oceana people who are not sympathetic to foreign occupation or to this violence; I am one of those and I would hope such massacres do not continue to occur. HORTON11: • 19:08, May 27, 2014 (UTC) :The people who committed it are currently running rogue through the Oceana countryside, about 170-190 men and women armed with various small arms, they aren't under my command but I'll continue to RP them. If the Sylvanian Militia come into contact with them, we'll try and apprehend them. :Let us hope the Burenians can protect their Oceana friends in this time of trouble. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 20:54, May 27, 2014 (UTC) ::Especially now that Hurbanova's coast is being manned by a Traspesian navy ship. Oh, and come to chat for important bits of info. HORTON11: • 20:59, May 27, 2014 (UTC) Lovian Army It'll take about a week to get recruits together. And then they'll only be militia. Not even as trained as the Burenians. I suggest you invite the LLA to form a bedrock or call back some FP officers from Clymene to form the backbone. Further here are the numbers that you should be able to recruit after a week: *Seven: 500 *Kings: 1000 *Total: 1500 Effectively as much as the Sylvanian Militia atm. And that's including a bedrock of either FP officers or LLA. There are about 200 FP officers available to you and about 300 LLA should they decide to join you. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 21:01, May 27, 2014 (UTC) That would be a good idea to bring LLA members into this. Once the militia is disbanded they'll be able to continue doing what they do best, though be then we should have formally passed a bill in congress if we are to make the army permanent. HORTON11: • 21:31, May 27, 2014 (UTC) Not sure what to do I want to oppose "Bennett states that Males, 18 and older are required to report to local government building now being transformed into military stations. Bennett announces the establishment of rations of goods, the centralized coordination of industry. Passenger trains will be converted to move troops and supplies. All of this is only effective only in Kings and Seven." because I hate conscription, but I don't want to create another group. What action could I take to oppose this? :s —TimeMaster (talk • ) 10:52, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :I'm don't like the idea of people being conscripted to fight either Frijoles333 TALK 12:02, May 28, 2014 (UTC) :Go through congress. As the Lovian Army is a government body a majority vote against conscription could just see volunteers in the military, which I think could still form a sizable force. And while we're at it we could also start work on laws regarding the military. HORTON11: • 12:30, May 28, 2014 (UTC) Pintona is going to send doctors to help Lovia and Strasland can send soldiers of the cosastal infantry.MMunson-talk- SP 19:29, May 28, 2014 (UTC) Well, what he's doing is unconstitutional anyway, per 2.1.9's right "To live in peace with his or her fellow-men." Also, I don't understand why he was chosen to lead the army and why he thinks he has the authority to do what he's doing, which suggests he'll just ignore anything that could somehow get through Congress. —TimeMaster (talk • ) 21:48, May 28, 2014 (UTC) Okay, I added something. Hopefully it's acceptable. —TimeMaster (talk • ) 21:51, May 28, 2014 (UTC) By the way, Horton, it appears that since you appointed Bennett, you can dismiss him, so you should threaten to do so if the conscription isn't halted (unless you support conscription, which would be sad). —TimeMaster (talk • ) 21:55, May 28, 2014 (UTC) What is being done is in a time of a national emergency; the war will be won and conscription will be dissolved. In order to get conscription passed and get volunteers takes to long and we don't have time. Lovia will prevail at the cost of a sacrifice. I look at the constitution saying in 2.1.9 as a RIGHT for conscription; how can our citizens live in peace with his or her fellow-men if their rights and peace are threatened by foreign invaders? Thus, these men will uphold that right - for everyone the right to live in peace. ---Sunkist- (talk) 22:04, May 28, 2014 (UTC) By doing so, you forget their own rights. No one should fight without desire or consent. Also, the "Males" (as opposed to both genders) annoys me too. —TimeMaster (talk • ) 10:50, May 29, 2014 (UTC) Yes, that really annoyed me too! Women can be soldiers too, they should be allowed to fight for their country! And like Time Master said, no one should have to fight if they don't want to. Sunkist, in upholding the freedom of Lovia, you seem to be forgetting the freedoms of these students that you've conscripted Frijoles333 TALK 10:57, May 29, 2014 (UTC) Sunkist, while it is true that we need to recruit men for the Lovian army, yanking them out of classes is not the way to go. I sincerely believe we can do with volunteers, and considering that foreign military and local militia numbers are significant I just don't see the need for conscription. We may yet require the assistance of those with paramilitary or police training but press-ganging them into service will not be the way. @ Females: Brunant and other nations allow women to occupy fighting and command positions within the military and we should do the same. HORTON11: • 13:27, May 29, 2014 (UTC) Is this a good time to mention that the Sylvanian Militia is completely composed of volunteers. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 17:32, May 29, 2014 (UTC) Lol, if only it was realistic to say I had 1500 volunteers, oh wait..I could. But hey, this could be interesting history? Forced draft? But whatever. I'll bow to the masses. -Sunkist- (talk) 17:41, May 29, 2014 (UTC) :You could but you've done nothing to transport those recruits from across Seven and Kings and didn't prepare like I did. I had two weeks prior to recruiting to prepare. You've not had that. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 17:56, May 29, 2014 (UTC) ::You need time to acquire those recruits as well as to provide the various military benefits. HORTON11: • 18:03, May 29, 2014 (UTC) :::Are you serious? :::"May 28th: 350 LNA soldiers are deployed to the northern conflict areas, with 150 going to the south to reinforce the Sylvanian Militia. :::May 28th: With full deployment of several naval forces and advance radar systems are established in Newhaven; Lovians will have the ability to be altered by enemy ships within 12 hours of landing. Bennett, begins his advance of his forces in the Emerald Highlands. :::And Kunarian, you think I was planning for this? I'm NOT OUR MINISTER OF DEFENSE. I had no time to prepare, I literally just mobilized this nation within two days. Those troops are still being transported. You attack me when I'm trying to deploy a nation that has weak leadership from the very beginning? The current 250 recruits I got yesterday are being trained. You have the tongue of a snake; attacking me in such a manner when our Minister of Defense; LUCAS HOFFMAN launches his own damn militia to fight merely for only HIS state. I'm doing your job, one that you should of been done long ago. ---Sunkist- (talk) 18:06, May 29, 2014 (UTC) ::::When did I attack you? I simply stated the reasons why I have a large force atm and you don't. No emotion in it, just facts to help inform people. You need to stop taking everything as an attack, especially if you think I'm attacking you by pointing out the current weaknesses in the logistics and preparation for the LNA recruitment. If anything you should look at what I wrote and then make sure everything is addressed so the LNA can operate at full capacity. ::::Further on the matter of the Sylvanian Militia. If the Sylvanian Militia was to fight solely for its own state then we wouldn't have tried to liberate Hurbanova, nor would we be taking any part in the current conflict. Sylvania could sit this one out and let you and your northern states fight the "axis of evil" alone. Yet we don't. ::::All the while you throw insults about how they are only fighting for their state. Which you largely do because I've refused to allow you to take control of them. And with good reason as displayed by your reply to some words of simple analysis. ::::On a final note. You aren't doing my job, you aren't managing anything but an army. Something which is not the Ministry of Defence's responsibility. There is no Lovian Army because Congress has not (and cannot due to impotence) created a law for such a thing. The "job" that should have been done long ago is not one by the Ministry of Defence but one by the Ministry of Justice and Congress. That "job" would have been to carry out a careful operation to control unstable elements in Lovian society via prosecution and imprisonment (threats of which I have used to maintain stability) and further Congress should have reformed itself to make it able to operate even after many people abandoned their votes and left. ::::Stagnation has caused this conflict. And stagnation will cause more until we reform congress so that you can actually pass laws with the actives rather than having to rally the inactives to vote (and even then falling short). Hoffmann KunarianTALK 22:42, May 29, 2014 (UTC) I'm confused. By bowing to the masses, do you mean the conscription will end? —TimeMaster (talk • ) 21:44, May 29, 2014 (UTC) Lámis Varzas Given the failed attempt to capture Sofasi, the Chvarqvians now have a good reason to bomb it. So if that's fine by you (as OOC community, obviously), I'll make that happen. --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 14:31, May 30, 2014 (UTC) :Where is the chvarqvian nation? Hoffmann KunarianTALK 19:08, May 30, 2014 (UTC) ::Bay of Bengal :P :::I seriously doubt that china would allow you to use the most direct route, as it goes over territory they claim. However if you want to then sure. But you'll be approaching from the south and we do have air superiority. So I don't fancy your chances of delivering your payload to anywhere north of Hurbanova. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 11:49, May 31, 2014 (UTC) ::::We'll see. --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 11:51, May 31, 2014 (UTC) There's no need to go to bomb use. None of the participants in the war have escalated it to that point, and I'm sure allied aircraft would shoot down your bomb-carrying plane over the pacific. HORTON11: • 14:38, May 30, 2014 (UTC) Anyway, I thought North-Korea was a good friend of Tagog. Wouldn't they've already nuked Lovia by now? :P --OuWTB 17:30, May 30, 2014 (UTC) :Haha :P --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 11:39, May 31, 2014 (UTC) Kunarian, Traspes might be right on this one. Canada fought the taliban, far more vicious fighters than Burenians/Tagogese etc and lost 158 soldiers over some 10 years. It is reasonable to expect that a similar rate of casualties from a well-armed and trained force and not something much higher at this point. That said Traspesian soldiers cannot go unscathed. HORTON11: • 21:13, May 31, 2014 (UTC) :Vicious means nothing in the modern age of ranged warfare. Canadian troops fought the badly trained and badly equipped taliban at in lands with so many natural defences its untrue. It is not reasonable to expect a similar rate of casualties at all. :Trapesian troops are going up against troops of a similar quality and equipment. They are attacking dug in troops when they themselves have no defensive structures to hide behind. A common military principle is that for dug in troops you need 3 men for every one they have to be able to have the same force strength as them. Also this fighting isn't anything like the fighting in Afghanistan. These aren't guys hiding behind rocks with AK47s engaging only a few times a year in battles of 20 to 50 men on either side. This is full on combat between a force of a hundred or so and a force of around two hundred and fifty, all armed with modern gear, trained well and fighting in the thick of it. :In short, Afghanistan is the worst comparison in the world you could have chosen. If I was being more realistic, the Burenians would have fewer casualties and the Trapesians more. Especially because they went close enough to capture some Burenians. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 21:49, May 31, 2014 (UTC) :But Burenians are about lot's of solders, the quantity and Traspes is about fewer but quality and better equipment. We can make less Burenian casualties but also less Traspesian. Traspes (talk) 00:33, June 1, 2014 (UTC) ::The difference in quality is minimal. So they outnumber you and outgun you atm, and are in a defensive position. Have you not considered that I've actually been rather fair to you atm? You will lose more in combat with they atm. Until you outnumber them, they will whittle you down. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 09:08, June 1, 2014 (UTC) :::Traspes has a jet, wouldn't that give them an advantage over the Burenians? And anyways I was under the impression that Burenia was more about quantity over quality, sending in more soldiers but sacrificing on the quality equipment. That said there is nothing on their military strength anywhere to base anything on. HORTON11: • 13:49, June 1, 2014 (UTC) ::::Quality disparity is incredibly low. The modern AKs that the Burenians wield are on the same footing (if not a better footing due to their utility and stopping power) than the weapons wielded by the Trapesians, which look generally to be the standard kind of American gear. I could understand about quality if the Burenians were equipped with AK47s or some other incredibly old weapons, but even then the disparity you talk about is incredibly small simply due to it being easy to acquire cheap good quality weapons and equipment in the modern age for nation states (particularly thanks to Russia and other nations that created practical weapons rather than simply gadget man weapons that most of the west seems to pride). ::::Quality really isn't important as much in the modern day. Numbers really do count more unless your opponent is an age behind you (weapons that you can easily outrange, badly trained troops, poor leadership). Hoffmann KunarianTALK 15:09, June 1, 2014 (UTC) :::::I don't see anything to indicate the strength or weaponry of Burenia (nor is there data on Traspes' weapons, only strength) to back arguments of similar strength or a wide disparity. That said, with aerial cover on Traspes' side and a mortar attack leaving the Burenians in disarray, I see an advantage for the attackers, but if not I have an idea that may level the field. HORTON11: • 15:36, June 1, 2014 (UTC) ::::::I'm using the images they've posted to give what little of an idea I can get atm. Concerning aerial cover. It's one jet, and not even a close air support jet at that, it doesn't instantly mean that the Burenians are doomed nor does it mean their defensive advantage is lost. Especially when you can't go bombing willy nilly because of civilians (SOMETHING EVERYONE WHO IS NOW BOMBING THE HELL OUT OF PLAINS HAS FORGOT). Further Mortars are not kill all weapons and their users are not immune to return fire, especially as the land around Plains has no natural defences. They also suffer from the issue of civilians. Really and truly you're being quite naive about this situation. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 20:48, June 1, 2014 (UTC) Finishing this off I'm finishing this off soon, that okay? Hoffmann KunarianTALK 07:08, July 4, 2014 (UTC) :Yeah, I'm fine with it. The past few weeks hardly anything's been done on this anyway. --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 07:48, July 4, 2014 (UTC) ::Yeah, let Lovia be restored. --OuWTB 09:14, July 4, 2014 (UTC) A new challenger enters the area! "Rejoice! For Kania has heard your woes, and wishes to enforce the peace in the nation of Lovia! Kania would like to establish a somewhat "permanent" garrison in Lovia, only about three hundred men, with the aim of dealing with any "destabilizing" events or invasions. Kania would also like to establish official foreign relations with Lovia, as well as help with the formation a permanent Lovian army, trained, armed, and funded by Kania. Please consider Kania's offer, as it does not wish to see this tiny bastion of democracy extinguished in conflict." -- Isadora Barlow, Secretary of State of the Republic of Kania Consider the offer, I could put Kania to use now in the war. Also, where's the infobox for this conflict? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 14:18, July 7, 2014 (UTC) I'm not sure if Kania should be involved just yet. First of all it falls beyond the scope of a wikination in terms of size, and secondly you don't have any interaction with wikinations. HORTON11: • 11:23, July 11, 2014 (UTC) At least it was worth trying. Also, if I don't interact with other wiki nations, wouldn't thing be the time to start? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 13:43, July 11, 2014 (UTC) Currently, Kenia's population is about ten times too much to have interaction with the other wikinations. You should consider changing that. --OuWTB 15:25, July 11, 2014 (UTC) Plus, I would have to oppose your plan of permanent troops in Lovia, and what's with everyone now trying to get in the war? Burenia and Co is enough for oppostion and Prasia, Traspes and others provide enough assistance to counter the invaders. We have no need for 50,000 belligerents. HORTON11: • 15:59, July 11, 2014 (UTC) I only planned to send 1,850 troops as shown on the page before its removal. And isn't Kania the only other nation to have joined since the war's start? How many other nations have tried to step in? Vivaporius: "I don't need a slogan" 18:38, July 11, 2014 (UTC) So, 4kant,6 just changed the end of the war to Burenian withdrawal from Lovia. Personally, I feel that that is a bad ending for the war. Firstly, we have superior naval control and the lands they are in are blockaded. That really leaves them trapped in Oceana. With the Sylvanians, FP, and Oceanans closing in (not to mention UNLOR), the Burenians would have to surrender or go down fighting. I have written a sort of draft for a conclusion to the war... *5th - The Burenians, kicked out of Hurbanova and East Hills retreat to the north of Peace Island. The Burenian troops from East Hills march to Coal Town and wreak massive havoc on the small mining village. This draws the Sylvanian militia away from the Oceana separatists. *6th - The main Oceanan separatist force, content with their occupation of Hurbanova, decide that they will expand their influence to include other Oceanan lands. They march into Overbanken where they are welcomed as heroes. Other branches of the Oceana Liberation Front emerge from along the southern coast of Peace Island. *7th - Bennet takes his men to Coal Town, but the Burenian forces have already made their way to Steenveld. The local FP put up a heroic stuggle, but they are defeated in a brutal fight by the better equipped and well-trained remaining Burenian forces. *8th - The Burenians have arrived at the outskirts of Charleston, which they storm. The local FP puts up a decent fight, but then decides to regroup in order to join the Sylvanian militia and Bennet's forces, which are setting up a perimeter to the north of Karlhaven. *9th - With the Burenians trapped within the city of Charleston and an ever increasing naval blockade in place, the leadership begins to contemplate surrender on favorable terms. They hold off for now, hoping that Bennet will offer favorable terms in exchange for surrender. * 10th - The Oceana sphere of influence has expanded to include the entire southern coast of Oceana. This massive increase in land has concerned Bennet and the leadership of Lovia. Bennet receives directives to suppress the Oceana revolt as soon as possible, and so he offers the Burenians safe passage out of the nation in exchange for surrender. *11th - The Burenians surrender. Their navy, which is currently blockaded out of Lovian waters, is welcomed in and take up the troops from Charleston Harbor. The Lovian and Lovian-allied navies escort the Burenian navy out of the region. We would need to have some level of events showing Bennet take care of the Oceana Liberation Front. Thanks, 19:29, July 11, 2014 (UTC) *Yeah, Rex, I personally like your idea more than just Burenians leave Lovia. -- 19:55, July 11, 2014 (UTC) Given that the Burenians had lost control over Hurbanova and East Hills I thouhgt that they'd surrender and leave later the same day, like it now says on the page. --QytokantFRÅGOR??? 20:46, July 11, 2014 (UTC) Okay I've put in a better summary of events. Commenting on Rex's suggestions, day by day: *5th - They cannot 'retreat north' as that is where the Sylvanian Militia's fortified line is, if they try decimation and death would follow, like trying to charge a ww1 trench. *6th - The Oceana rising up in Hurbanova are friendly to the Lovian government and are not an empire, they are a people wanting their city back. *7th - look to my comments on the 5th, the Burenians couldn't go north. Also there would be no FP in steenveld as that is not how the FP operate in Lovia. *8th - again, cannot go north. And again the FP do not work like that. *9th - cannot go north. *10th - okay at this point I worry that you think Bennett controls all armed troops in Lovia, he does not, anyways. Again these are Oceana friendly to the Lovian government. *11th - we wouldn't let their navy in, we would capture the troops and work out peaceful terms with Burenia. And on the idea of events showing Bennett 'taking care of the Oceana Liberation Front'. The Oceana Liberation Front is allied to the Sylvanian Militia and apparently (although some people have clearly missed it) the Lovian Government in overthrowing Burenian occupation. If Bennett attacked them and 'took care of them' then the Sylvanian Militia and other Oceana would 'take care of Bennett'. There seems to be three main misunderstandings: 1) The Burenians cannot go north and will find it even harder to retreat now they are dug in. 2) The Oceana Liberation Front is friendly to the Lovian Government and Sylvanians as it wishes to end Burenian occupation. 3) Bennett is not a supreme commander, he leads a force of Kings FP and his own personal militia, formed into the Lovian Army. But I'm glad you suggested your ideas here rather than just throw them on the page and try and force it to happen. We've been able to go over and correct some misunderstandings and now hopefully everyone understands the situation better. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 12:23, July 13, 2014 (UTC) The war is over So the war is over, can I remove the Traspesian soldiers??? Or you still need for reconstructing and security?? Traspes (talk) 22:51, July 14, 2014 (UTC) I recommend a slow withdrawal, stay for a couple of weeks for help getting the damaged settlements back in order. Hoffmann KunarianTALK 05:47, July 16, 2014 (UTC) I will also begin to withdraw Brunanter troops though a few advisors can stay behind to assist postwar security efforts. Furthermore we could do something to assist either the police or the military (if congress would like to make it permanent) in defense and security. HORTON11: • 17:12, July 16, 2014 (UTC)